Episode #18: The Shopify Rockstar from Columbus, Ohio

Episode 18 Milk Bottle Shopify Ecommerce Podcast with Chase Clymer

[00:00:00] Chase: Way back when, dropped out of college and I joined a band, some friends, and we started touring. put out two full-lengths, a couple of EPs toured the US four or five times.

[00:00:18] Intro: Welcome to the Milk Bottle Shopify Ecommerce Podcast brought to you by Milk Bottle Labs, Ireland's top-rated Shopify experts, Milk Bottle Labs, build, upgrade, migrate and market Shopify and Shopify Plus stores all over the world. Milk Bottle will migrate you onto Shopify with zero interruption guaranteed, or optimize your Shopify store and maximize store sales. This podcast is kindly supported by our favourite Shopify app and the only app we install in every store. Rewind.io is the leading backup solution for your Shopify store. We'll talk more about Rewind later now over to your host, founder of Milk Bottle Labs Keith Matthews.

[00:01:06] Keith: Hey folks welcome back to another episode of the Milk Bottle Shopify Ecommerce Podcast. Today I'm delighted to talk to Chase Clymer co-founder of one of the most successful Shopify agencies in Ohio, Electric Eye. Today, as we moved towards Black Friday, Chase shares some of the work he's been doing for Shopify clients over the past few weeks to prep them for the biggest shopping weekend of the year. Chase Clymer from Electric Eye in Columbus, Ohio.

[00:01:33] Chase: How are you today? I'm doing fantastic. How are you doing?

[00:01:36] Keith: Not too bad. I am talking to you from the leafy suburbs of the capital of Ireland, Dublin. Where are you talking to me from?

[00:01:43] Chase: Are you in the office? I'm at the house. We're actually fully remote now here in Columbus, Ohio. It's, you know, Buckeyes, OSU, all that fun stuff.

[00:01:52] Keith: Good. And when you say you're fully remote, does that mean that you had an office and you decided to disperse?

[00:01:57] Chase: It's actually kind of a fun little story. We had an office for about a year and it actually helped our business. Having the office helped our business getting us in the same place for a while to really knock out some of the growing pains of a small agency or heck, just a small business. It was good. But then towards the end of when we decided to get rid of the office, we weren't going into the office like, except like maybe once a week for our all-hands meetings. And we were just like, you know what? As if we were like having an annual meeting and everyone was just like, uh, dancing around it. And then finally someone was like, if we got rid of the office, we'd save like 12 to $15,000 a year. And we're all like, let's get rid of it. Yeah.

[00:02:40] Keith: So that's funny because most people think that, I mean, remote working obviously in Europe and Ireland, the States it's really, really popular. But I do find that it is great to get together. So you guys went full circle, you guys taught that you needed an office and then when you ended up with an office you realized that in actual fact, you'll probably get more done if you don't have an office.

[00:02:58] Chase: Yeah. You know, it was funny. So being in the same room, you'd be heads down on something and then your project manager would be like, Hey, I've got a question about this thing. And just completely interrupt your flow. There's a few things you need to get used to when working remote. You know, and I don't think it's for everyone or for every business, but for us, we've got, you know, realtime communication in Slack. Detailed notes in base camp and Google docs. We're aware that people are working on other stuff or we like really detailed calendars. We're driven by our calendars so you can look and see if someone's available, but even if they're free, they might be working on, you know, a rock for that quarter, which is kind of how we run our business is based on the traction model. Once we kind of got used to it, it definitely started to work.

[00:03:42] Keith: Chase, you’re very similar to Milk Bottle Labs. You guys are all in on Shopify. We're operating in a very, very small market, so I'm delighted to talk to you. The last time I met you was, I think we met in New York last year, and then we met at Unite two years ago. So I'm really interested to understand exactly the verticals on exactly the sort of services you guys provide and the different experience that you're going to have with the US merchants. But before we go there, I have to say that you are the first interviewee that I've ever had that I've ever interviewed by doing research on Wikipedia and also on youTube. Tell us about your rock star history. It's a wonderful, wonderful story.

[00:04:23] Chase: Yeah. That was my first dream was being a rock star. So way back when, dropped out of college and I joined a band with some friends, and we started touring, we signed a record deal, put out two full-lengths, a couple of EPs toured the US four or five times the band was called City Lights. Normally I don't mention it, but I know you would make me, you know, that's pop punk. It was really fun. It was when I was younger. I did that from when I was 18 to about 24 I think is when we, we didn't break up per se, but we just stopped doing it. We kinda hit a ceiling within that band. We knew it'd be hard to get to the next level, and everyone else in the band had better opportunities. So it was a mutual thing. We kind of decided like, Hey, let's focus on these other things, these other opportunities in our lives, and we'll move on from there. But you know, I would never trade it for the world. It was super fun. But being in a small band is a lot like being in a small business and it was not paying the bills. So that's kind of where I got my, got my feet wet with learning, kind of the digital side of digital marketing. You know, I started in photography, got me into design, then got me into web design, got me into advertising. So while I was on the road with the band, I kind of already had clients. I was freelancing the whole time. Kind of learning all these skills that I ended up using now in the agency life. It's actually funny after the band broke up, I was like, well, what am I going to do? And I interviewed at a very prestigious agency here in Columbus, Ohio. I'm not going to name him cause they didn't hire me, but I found out through the grapevine that they didn't hire me because I, uh, the way I was speaking, they knew that I would work there for six months, quit and start my own shop. So I just started my own shop.

[00:06:02] Keith: Straight in. Do you miss that lifestyle, I mean, I just looked at a few videos of you and you guys were a big band. I mean, do you gig now and then do you do a couple of gigs during the year? Do you practice two or three days a week or did you completely walk away from rock music

[00:06:17] Chase: Yeah, that's a good question. So I'm actually still like, the lead singer of that band is still my roommate and we're business partners on some other stuff. He's in a giant band these days. Whenever I get the chance and now that we work remote, I jump on the road with them sometimes and I, and I do photography for them. I whip out the old camera - side note, I broke my camera this week. So that sucks. I need a new one of those.

[00:06:37] Keith: how did you do that?

[00:06:38] Chase: Just started eating SD cards and like ruined our meetup and like wouldn't film anything. So I'll figure that out. But yeah, I mean, I'm still pretty close to a lot of the people that I toured with when I was younger. I'll go out and support them now that they're in like a bigger band. I get to go and see a lot of cooler concerts and, and you know, do the backstage thing. I do miss it, but at the same time, I have a lot of passion for what I do now. I definitely realized like once the band broke up, I was doing like five things at once and none of it really caught too because I was like, you know, spreading my time so thin. I couldn't really give the dedication to something that I really needed to. So once I went all-in on the agency with Sean, and once we were like, all right, this is what we're doing with like Electric Eye is our focus. Then it started to take off. These days I would play for fun. But yeah, like we've done a few reunions shows since the band broke up, but I mean, if I was going to get back into playing music and get back into the band it would be for passion, it wouldn't be for profit.

[00:07:35] Keith: The way you described it there was, you know, the way you did it for a few years, you always wanted to do is, and then you stepped away from it. That's an admirable way to look at it. A lot of people, I think maybe that's when they go down that route unless they credit a number one selling album, whether it be in comedy or whether it be as an actor or whether it be as a performer, that it's a failure. But I think in life you can dip your toe into things, give things 100% and then just change. So well done. It's a great experience to have. You know, it's such a young age for a guy you know that's still in his twenties so, well done on that.

[00:08:07] Chase: I'm only in my twenties for another six months. Look at calendar apparently…

[00:08:13] Keith: I wasn't going to, I wasn't going to mention that, but you know, good luck to enjoy the rest of it

So you mentioned Sean, we've mentioned Electric Eye, so give us a taste of what you guys do. Electric Eye, you know, similar to Milk Bottle Labs, you work with Shopify merchants. As we run-up to Black Friday, which is a much larger event in the States. It's catching on here. But for you guys, I'm assuming that you're prepping with your clients now for the biggest says one of the biggest sales days of the year.

[00:08:38] Chase: From 90 days out, we're like, what's the plan? What's the plan? What's the plan? We should probably even start sooner next year. But yeah, for Black Friday, especially here in the States, you've got to have everything sorted a week before almost because there's so much it just for like Facebook ads, there's so much running that week. Now. Have you tried to get some last-minute thing and they like had delayed ads for up to like three days in previous years that they would be in review for three days. So if you were trying to push something last minute, say on Thanksgiving, which is the Thursday, your ad wouldn't go live until Sunday and you would just miss Black Friday. So you got to think about that stuff in advance. And then some of our clients they have great ideas, but they might be a little confusing to the end-user. So we help massage it into like a message that's a little bit easier to digest and how can we use that across multiple platforms. So at the same deal on say, Facebook's the same deal that you're gonna push out through your email marketing, there's making sure the message is the same on the website as well. There's a bunch of little stuff that goes into a well-executed sale. So we definitely want them to take the time to sit down, understand what it is, and then we can make sure that we check all the boxes for them.

[00:09:48] Keith: Chase just could just roll it back there a second. You mentioned event, the backup of the queue of ads on Facebook?. So in, in that instance then, what should the merchant be prepped to do? Have all the ads ready and submit them in advance and then pause them? Is that what you do?

[00:10:02] Chase: We submit them and schedule them for, so like we tell everyone it's gotta be in the week before, so it's gotta be in the Thursday before is what we tell everybody we need all your assets, we need the copy that you want us to start with. You know, if you get it in a little sooner and we can show you some mock-ups. But yeah, we're like, we get it in and we schedule it to start exactly what it wants to like when we want to start it on. You know, we actually started most of these ads on Thanksgiving with some clients. We have some that are just like, let's do a whole week. And they start on the Monday before. Yeah. You know, we're saying a week before and we have it scheduled so we can see that it's scheduled and it's done being pending. So if there are any issues we can like try to resubmit it. We can like try to get it pushed through faster through our connections at Facebook. So that gives us the time to do any of that troubleshooting. If it comes up.

[00:10:46] Keith: Yeah. That's good advice actually. That's very good advice. It's hard to believe that the platform could have a queue, but I suppose obviously the systems they use to review every ad are obviously gonna be busier at that time. In terms of your customer base, is there a particular vertical that you guys are really comfortable and really experienced with.

[00:11:01] Chase: Yeah, I mean, we have tended to gravitate more towards lifestyle brands, and I think that comes from Sean's background of being a designer at a lifestyle brand. We have clients that don't fit that mould now and there. They're super fun clients and you know, they've been around for a while, but it, it seems like a lot of them are kind of in that lifestyle brand mode. So clothing companies or products that are kind of fitting that, that lifestyle mentality, content creation around it. It's super fun. There's a lot of stuff you can do there. Yeah.

[00:11:33] Keith: Lifestyle brands and fashion brands are absolutely killing it in the States. On Twitter, I see that Kim Kardashian's skins brand launched last week, and didn't they do... I think I read, they did something like 2 million in the first five minutes

[00:11:45]Chase: I mean, I would not like put it past them. And I'm sure that's on Shopify cause that's where her sister's was.

[00:11:51] Keith: It is on Shopify. I think it was at Unite last year. I heard somebody quote that they had something like 25,000 checkouts per minute on. There plus store a for a Kylie cosmetics and Black Friday last year, so it's probably doubled or tripled, but they've certainly taken Shopify by storm and started making a success list. In terms of services that you guys provide, Chase, what we've done in Milk Bottle over the last couple of years is we started as offering a lot of services, AdWords, Facebook, and Shopify. And then what happened with us, you know, as a small team, Google launched shopping in Ireland, and then the Google ad words management became more complex. And then Facebook platform, which was never really engineered I don't think for enterprise or for busy businesses, that became more complex and complicated. So. We found ourselves just kind of ruling out those sort of services. But when you talk about that, and when you describe what you're doing for Black Friday, are you doing all of that for your clients or are you using an agency to do is, are you assisting them? Are you providing a kind of wrapped in service with a, with multiple services to make it easier for your client?

[00:12:56] Chase: So we realized actually as a small boutique agency like we don't want to grow this thing to be bigger than it is. We're fine with staying small now. To provide the best value to our clients? We're pretty much a custom shop these days, so there is no cookie-cutter engagement, but it's based around the kind of four principles of what we offer, which is design, development, marketing, and automation. So the biggest thing we do for our clients is probably the strategy. Once we figured out like the goals and how to reach those goals and come up with a strategy to get there, then we help execute for it. So sometimes that might be a one and done project where it's just a really sexy redesign and it's, the UX is there to help push up their conversion rate. You know, sometimes it might be beyond that to where we're helping them also manage ad spends or content creation. It's so, it's kind of all over the place, but we only work with a small number of clients. We top it at 12 active clients at a time. So it allows us to kind of give them the best value of how we can deliver for them and really give them results.

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[00:15:09] Keith: Interesting. Our mutual friend Kurt Elster interview mentioned was it Paul Jarvis who wrote that book? A Company of One? Did you read that book?

[00:15:17] Chase: [00:15:17] I have not read that book yet, but I got in, I got this 12 client model from a book by Blair Enns called Pricing Creativity.

[00:15:25] Keith: Pretty good. In the interview with Kurt, basically what he says is, is that, you know, the obsession that people have, and I get it here, if you explain to people who you are and what you do, the first thing to do in Europe is they ask you how many people that you've got working for you. And basically what Jarvis does is he challenges that, you know, any questions, why everybody constantly wants to get bigger. So. I wouldn't say that we cap it at 12 per month, but we certainly have an idea of many people we want to have in the business on what sort of scale we want to get to in the next five years. But it's certainly capped and limited. So it's interesting that you kind of have that theory in business so far away from us. I think you have to do that to control things because if you try and expand rapidly, you will just end up taking on work that you don't really need. So I think we both know how hard it is to move away from a client that's just difficult.

[00:16:12] Chase: Yeah. And it's just the availability of your resources, your staff, and it's that the opportunity cost of taking on, you know, a headache client or a low-value client to where you could be utilizing your resources and giving them bonuses by taking on something that's better for the company.

[00:16:30] Keith: But do you find it difficult then because you have to upskill on Shopify, which is constantly changing, updates constantly being pushed out? I mean, do you find that you have to upskill them on other platforms? Is that difficult or you can stay on top of that. Can you?

[00:16:44] Chase: We're all in on Shopify and the changes aren't really too crazy for us, but it's definitely the way our projects seem to work out that most of the work on Shopify is like phase one and then most of the work on the other platforms would be phase two with like retainers and whatnot for our clients.

[00:17:02] Keith: I suppose as long as it's phase two and the client is going to stay with it, you can plan towards that so you can, we can work at your resources. That's actually an interesting approach. How did you find Shopify Chase? I'm always interested to figure out how people stumbled across it.

[00:17:15] Chase: So I was a WordPress guy in a previous life and my partner came to me and was like, Hey, you know that marketing stuff? And I was like, yeah, I guess. And he brought me in on a client. Oh my gosh. Now that I think about this, they're still our client. So this is before the agency. Me and Sean are working with this shoe company. I was running their Facebook ads on their Shopify store, and I was like, I don't really know Shopify that well Sean and I got in there and I was like, Oh my God, this is awesome. And I was immediately sold on Shopify. I learned everything I could, just the way that it integrated with... the Marketing stuff was amazing. So I was, I was super stoked on the platforms. So once we figured out that it was not easy, but it was doable and we were seeing results for our client. I kind of brought in a few more clients. And next thing you know, me and Sean had a, had a Shopify agency.

[00:18:08] Keith: I spent many nights over beers trying to explain to a few of my WordPress buddies that Shopify was the way to go. And it took them a long time for me to convince them, but they certainly followed suit. It's funny, I was just at an event in Dublin there and I was sitting beside a friend of ours who runs a Magento agency in Ireland, and he was telling me that he reckons the two thirds of their development time with their retainer clients is spent patching Magento and fixing hosting issues or domain issues, which is alien to us.

[00:18:37] Chase: If you have a website built on WordPress or Magento, and let me just sidebar here... Shopify is great for an eCommerce store. You're doing direct to consumer. You're not going too far out of that business model. Shopify is going to kick butt for you. But there is a place for a WordPress site. There is a place for a Squarespace sites. There is a place for Magento site, but not with that model. I just said earlier that direct to consumer with, you know, a pretty straightforward business model like Shopify is going to do it so well for you but say like those WordPress and Magento. Those aren't hosted solutions. You're going to need some tech-savvy people on your team to make sure that there's no security issues, that the backups are there to patch any weird flaws that come from plugins getting updated. You know, that was just the bane of my existence back when I was doing WordPress. So once I got over to Shopify, I was like, this doesn't happen.

[00:19:26] Keith: Yeah. And it's funny, I built like back in the day, gosh, 2001 2002 2003 I built, you know, Joomla stores. And press the shops, stores, and WordPress stores. I've often thought about it recently. You know, they were stressed because you never knew what was going to go wrong next. And it's such a joy to work on Shopify because you know that once you push it out, that change. Chances are it's going to result in a conversion increase with a customer that's just so simplistic and it's so easy for the clients to understand how it operates. We're working with a very successful plus client at the moment, and we're pushing in an update every Thursday for the next seven weeks. I'm, we've, you know, we can explain the updates shared with the client before it goes live. They approve and then it just goes live. There's very, very few platforms where you can have, you know, a very, very smooth rollout of updates without having two and three-hour conference calls or face to face meetings. It's such a pleasure to work with.

[00:20:23] Chase: Oh, absolutely.

[00:20:24] Keith: Chase. Just to loop back to Black Friday, just give us an example of the sort of assistance you're giving your clients on the roadmap.

[00:20:30] Chase: We have proposals out to all of our clients with some options on ways that we can help improve their store in time for Black Friday. Right now, if you were trying to do any SEO stuff, you'd be kind of out of luck. It's not enough time to really make an impact, but we're doing stuff all over the place. So like if this was six months ago, I tell every client like, Hey, let's do a bigger SEO push. Let's do some content creation for Black Friday around your business around this. What are your customers like? But we didn't have any clients that really wanted to do that this year. But what we are doing is. All of them. We are doing site optimizations specifically around speed and reducing JavaScript calls because the faster your website is, your conversion rate will go up. There's science behind that. You know, if you can speed up your site, it's a better user experience for your customer. They get to see what they want faster. It increases conversion. So we're doing that for everybody. Additionally, we're doing some UX updates. You know, going back to a website you've built. Six months later, a year later with fresh eyes, you're like, you know what? We should move this here. We should do these changes. Or you can even like notice things that you didn't notice during QA, which is like unfortunate, but everyone's human. So you're like, Hey, we're going to fix all this stuff. So we're doing that for two clients right now. And then on top of that, we're like, Hey, here's like how your competitors are doing this, or they have this feature and you don't. We're getting some of that stuff locked in. So that's kind of just more on the UX fixes and UX optimizations side of things. So we're doing that right now for our clients. So the goal there just obviously increases that, you know, make the customer experience better, and then, which will lead to a happy customer and hopefully more sales. And then the next thing that we're doing for them is talking about different types of marketing that we can do. So one that we've found a lot of actual success with lately is SMS marketing. So take text marketing. We have one client and it's hilarious 742% return on spend.

[00:22:31] Keith: So Chase explained to that works. Are you talking about sending the abandoned cart if I SMS or just give us somebody to handle exactly what you're talking about there?

[00:22:38] Chase: Yeah, so there are two platforms that we use. One is called SMS bump, and the other one's called postscript, and they're kind of like your automated email marketing platforms like Conversio or Klaviyo. They kind of have the same type of scripting and the same type of events that occur too. Then they'll send out a message. You know, the abandoned cart works pretty well. Browse abandonment, stuff like that.

[00:22:59] Keith: That makes perfect sense. And there is a lot of Shopify merchants that are, that are using abandoned carts, being pushed through to messenger as well and getting a lot of success out of it. So obviously it's on the mobile, and maybe the potential customer might open an SMS or a Facebook messenger message. You know quicker than they might open her name as that makes perfect sense. Over here, we're seeing that a lot of Irish merchants don't take full advantage of email. Is emails that have something that you guys focus on to maybe Klaviyo or Conversio?

[00:23:26] Chase: [Yeah, we're pretty die-hard Klaviyo fans over here. If you don't have an automated email solution set up, and even if you have one set up and we don't like that particular software, we're gonna explain the benefits and do a cost analysis on changing over to Klaviyo. Yeah, we set up about a dozen right off the bat, and then we think about the customer of that client. We think about the product that that client offers, and we brainstorm other ways to increase those touchpoints. Because anytime you can have the marketing message match, like what's going on in that customer's journey, you're going to see awesome returns. So for example, say you got a makeup brand and you know that this particular product usually runs out after 90 days. If you can set up quick automation to where, all right, they bought that product 90 days out, ask cause they want to refill, you know, that's super easy. You can take one step further than that. You could in 90 days offer them that upsell or offer them the subscription. You know what I mean? You could get a little higher lifetime value out of them by just giving them the subscription offer like after it ran out if they had a good experience there. You know, there's so much cool stuff you can do with automated email marketing and you can even get into it with creating certain discount codes or winbacks and all sorts of stuff.

[00:24:44] Keith: We do a lot of it and say if we do, obviously we're all in on Shopify but the other efforts that we put in for clients is email. What do you do then is you build out some flows in Klaviyo and then what? You wait for the data to fill over a few months, then you go back in, and then when you have a decent amount of data, then you suggest some new flows. Is that the way you do it?

[00:25:03] Chase: And you can even sweat test these flows. What test the subject lines to see which one gets a better open rate. And another thing like here's a just another email that is a wild success is the birthday email. You know, everyone's gonna open up the personalized birthday email from whoever sends it to them. You know that one's going to have a high open-rate and it's got a discount in there. It might, or you know, some people don't offer discounts, they want to not discount their products, but you can discount the shipping or add a bonus item or something like that. So there's ways to make the birthday email pretty special and get a return from your customer that way. Getting everything set up and kind of letting it run and getting some data back and then going in and tweaking is always going to increase it. We find that our successful clients that are really utilizing email, so they're not only sending the flows, what they're sending out newsletters on a, on a cadence that makes sense to their brand. They're seeing about 30 to 50% of their revenues coming from email.

[00:25:55] Keith: Yeah, we see the same.

We actually have one client that's doing about 440,000 euros a year, and they're actually getting 172 on email, so it's massive massive proportion. And it's funny because when you try and explain that to people, a lot of them don't get it or maybe you agree that this is just money for nothing really. I mean it's, it takes a small investment to set it up.

[00:26:16] Chase: Oh man. And then you have some people that are like, I don't want to be that brand. And I'm like. Do you not want to? You asked me to increase your business into increase your profits, and here is a known way I think that people get in their own way with that mentality and that attitude. The people that want to hear from you, the people that are fans of your brand, and they're not going to care that you're reaching out to them as long as you're giving them value. So just don't have a sale email every week, but find a way to have a valuable email newsletter or give them something that they might particularly like, and you're not going to see a bad exchange there. You know the people that don't want to hear from you. When you go into this more frequent cadence are going to drop off your list. You're going to pay less for your list and the people that want to hear from you. Are going to be excited, your open rates are going to go up and everything's going to work better.

[00:27:02] Keith: Absolutely. Fully agreed. And of course, if you use Klaviyo, you can use that function where it allows you to sunset users that aren't engaging with you. So what we see a lot of users, a lot of merchants doing is, is their, their list may actually begin to grow slower. Because you will sunset unengaged users, but at least is you can be confident that that list is a decent group of people that have purchased already and they purchase in the future.

[00:27:27] Chase: Oh yeah. I'm all about list cleaning, list hygiene, you know, making sure that you don't have dead emails in there or duplicate emails. The more accurate your list is to the people that want to hear from your brand. You can then take that list and you can push it over to say Facebook. Make a custom audience there. Make a lookalike audience from it. You can do similar stuff on Google. The more accurate the data is within the list of people that actually want to hear from you. It will work wonders all over the place.

[00:27:56] Keith: And again, you can link to that list directly in Klaviyo. For me personally, I think if you're a merchant. And you're using Shopify. I invest an email before I even invest in AdWords or Facebook marketing. Of course, if you're a startup, you have no choice. You have to do everything, but the return on investment of email is thousands and thousands of per cent versus PPC, which is rising and rising and rising every year. Yeah. We're all, I have to say we're all in on email.

[00:28:19] Chase: Though, if you're getting that traffic in from day one and you don't have a robust email welcome series and then like touch bases throughout the year with that email software. You're lighting a lot of your money on fire. So I would say first thing is get that email stuff set up because then maybe someone does join your list. They're interested in your company, but they're not going to your products and they're not ready to purchase it. They're on your list and you've got a well-thought sequence going out and you're going to keep doing those touchpoints, you're going to win their business down the line. Whereas if you do it backwards and you don't have any email stuff going on and you're just paying people to go to your site, you're letting half of them leave. That might've given you their email and you know, stayed in touch.

[00:29:01] Keith: Yeah. And I think the problem with most people is that it's, if you give, you know, your marketing guys a budget, it's just so easy to blow it on ad words. And then of course for some people it's too late. Then they don't, as you say, set up their email before they set up their outbound marketing campaign on display advertising. It's a mistake a lot of people make. Chase it was an absolute pleasure talking to you. Really appreciate your time. Thanks very much.

[00:29:21] Chase: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:29:23] Keith: Thanks for listening to the Milk Bottles Shopify Ecommerce Podcast. All of our episodes are available on Spotify and iTunes. We really appreciate the support of our sponsor. Rewind.io, the leading backup solution for your Shopify store. Get your first month of rewind for free. Just to respond to any of the welcome messages or emails after you begin your seven day free trial and mention our podcast until the next time. Take care.