Episode #23: The Renascence of SMS

Episode 23 Milk Bottle Shopify Ecommerce Podcast with Mike Stoychev

Mike: [00:00:00] Probably the first question that we ever get asked when someone signs up is that, can I blast the text campaign to all of my subscribers and just let them know that I'm starting and SMS marketing channel.

[00:00:17] Welcome to the Milk Bottle Shopify Ecommerce Podcast brought to you by Milk Bottle Labs, Ireland's top rated Shopify experts, Milk Bottle Labs, build, upgrade, migrate and market Shopify and Shopify Plus stores all over the world. Milk Bottle will migrate you onto Shopify with zero interruption guaranteed, or optimize your Shopify store and maximize store sales. This podcast is kindly supported by our favourite Shopify app and the only app we install in every store. Rewind.io is the leading backup solution for your Shopify store. We'll talk more about Rewind later now over to your host, founder of Milk Bottle Labs Keith Matthews.

Keith: [00:01:04] Hey folks, welcome back to another episode of the Milk Bottle Shopify Ecommerce podcast.

[00:01:17] Today we discuss all things SMS, and there's a perception out there that SMS is actually on the way out. But around the world, it is increasingly being used for Shopify store owners to use as a marketing tool rather than a utility to simply let customers know when your order is delayed or when your delivery is underway.

[00:01:29] So to discuss the growth of SMS and to rebuff that myth completely, I'm delighted to be joined by Mike Stoychev, who is the CEO and the founder of SMSBump. Mike how are you doing?

Mike: [00:01:42] Good, Keith. How's it going?

Keith: [00:01:43] Yeah. We're good, it's Monday morning and we're in the middle of the storm in Ireland at the moment, so we have a red weather alert. I'm nice and warm, in the house are you in the house or in the office. What [sort of structures do you have with the team,

Mike: [00:01:55] The majority of us are based in, in an office. We're based in Sofia, which [00:02:00] is the capital of Bulgaria. I can't brag about the weather because it's equally horrendous here. No red alert, still very cloudy and murky with occasional drizzle.

Keith: [00:02:12] Good. Well, it's a wet cold Monday, January, but let's leave that behind because Mike, would you believe I worked in the premium ms sector for at Telefonica a number of years ago. I'll never forget being in Australia in 2003 or 2004 and I actually showed an American friend of mine how to send an SMS.

[00:02:31] Which I was amazed at. And now in the Shopify community, we can see that you guys are leading the charge on the kind of resurgence of SMS. So is it a myth that is in decline because you are, obviously, you're a very successful Shopify app developers. So SMS is obviously on the rise again, isn’t it?

Mike: [00:02:47] I would say yes.

I believe that SMS is having its renascence right now, when we were starting in 2017 we were very frequently asking questions about the integrity of SMS. [00:03:00] Isn't it too spammy? Isn't it too, you know, penetrating our privacy. What if I get a text message in the middle of the night? What if I've pissed off customers, so I think everyone has their concerns about going into this space.

And of course I understand all of those concerns. If you go with a service which doesn't abide by the rules and regulations, you're definitely likely to piss people off? You're definitely likely to probably get even into trouble. If you want to abide by all laws, rules, regulations, if you get the proper consent from your customers and turn them into subscribers, I think yes, SMS is a great tool to communicate with them to occasionally blast them a promotion, but more often than not, just make sure that you're on top of [00:04:00] your subscribers. By providing them relevant information or just asking how they are and whether they're like the last purchase they made from your store.

Keith: [00:04:02] It's a heavily regulated area and we get to that in a moment. But how did you move into that area? Because you come from an agency background, don't you?

Mike: [00:04:12] Yes, sure.

Yes, sure. So previously we were running eComm agency where we were developing different type of apps for open source e-commerce. And actually we developed SMSBump quite some time ago just because we wanted to solve a problem with cash on delivering the middle East.

Then we kind of like developed it then left it off because again, we were smashed by the number of projects that we had to work on daily basis. I would say two and a half years ago.

[00:04:42] So we're looking at the summer of 2017 we were told that our emails, we're not getting the same performance as they used to. And we kind of like thought how we might tackle this problem. So we looked into messenger, which was [00:05:00] the hottest thing back then, and obviously Whatsapp making its way. And then after some initial discussions with my partner, we sold that, you know.

[00:05:10] We don't want to be regulated by a single company and have a single point of failure. And we also looked at too, what is a great way to communicate with customers regardless of whether they have internet on how can we convey their message, a message in particular, and how we might reach out to people without any borders, without any boundaries, without any single point of failure.

[00:05:37] We essentially decided that SMS is the way to go forward and we decided that SMS is the way to go forward. So we kind of like took SMSBump from the freezer. We recoded it, and I think on the third month it already proved a profitable business. So we just continued from there.

Keith: [00:06:00] You actually were solving a problem for a client.

[00:06:02] And then you opened the black box again and turned it into a full scale product.

[00:06:07] Mike: [00:06:07] Going a little bit more into details, we were, we were working with this very big customer in the Middle East and just emails for some sort were not working that well for them. The solution they ask us to initiative was to solve a problem for cash on delivery and to reduce the amount of add orders, which means that someone orders something, then the courier goes and then this person even doesn't exist on this address or they're out and haven't left the phone number and all of that. So we kind of like developed a plan where we required them to enter their phone number for SMS notifications. And as a second step. We also use, I believe it was Twitter back in the days just to kind of like send the text messages, and I think [00:07:00] overnight this actually does solve the problem or reduced it to a normal sense.

[00:06:58] There were probably out of 200 orders, one was defaulting for whatever reason, but it actually solved the problem. So. The initial, I would say, experience we've gotten with SMS was first developed with a customer. Then we asked them, Hey, let's, uh, let's go further and that's, do abandon cards and let's do order reviews.

[00:07:18] And they, they said no. So we kind of like a. So we took it upon ourselves and developed it further.

Keith: [00:07:27] And to move slightly into the regulations. So in 2018 a year after you guys started that, the general data protection regulation was issued in the EU without getting into the boring details of it, you can only communicate with customer provided that they've opted in to receive communications.

[00:07:43] So are the rules around that similar to email, are they identical or is there a specific set of legislation around SMS marketing and compliance.

Mike: [00:07:52] The real response is that [00:08:00] the GDPR pretty much applies to the whole European Union wherever you go and will [00:08:00] they ever marketing you do. I'm a huge believer that it needs to be consent driven.

[00:08:05] I hated when someone would just message me out of the box, and of course it happens to all of us from time to time or getting robocalls, which are not that popular in Europe, but quite popular in the States. So regardless of GDPR, I think. And our service is built around the notion that all of the consent, all of the contacts, all the subscribers need to be developed after you install the app.

[00:08:31] So once you stolen, set up SMSBump, you started with zero subscribers, and actually we give you a number of tools that help you grow this list over time. So I would say, to answer your question, yes, all of the consent needs to be collected over time, just like emails, and you own the differences that in the privacy policy you also [00:09:00] need to tell what are you going to use the customer's phone number for and what are you going to pass it to [00:09:00] any further interested parties, long chain.

Keith: [00:09:03] In your experience with other customers, is it harder to build up a list of SMS marketing lists versus an email marketing list? I would think that it's harder to build up your SMS list. Maybe I'm wrong.

[00:09:15] Mike: [00:09:15] Well, I've heard an expression that SMS is the last box of privacy.

[00:09:21] So again, with that much noise in the sector and that many new players coming in, a lot of not so good actors are being attracted to the sector who usually is spoiled the good thing for everyone else. So just to answer your question, I believe that. Building up a list takes time, being on email or on SMS, and probably the first question that we ever get asked when someone signs up is that, can I blast the text campaign to all of my [00:10:00] subscribers and just let them know that I'm starting an SMS let's say marketing channel?

[00:09:59] And the [00:10:00] answer to this is definitely no. They did sign up for email or they did sign up for push. They did sign up for Facebook marketing, but they never signed up for SMS marketing. And as SMS marketing is a unique channel, we need to start collecting consent from there. So there are a number of ways that you need to, and you can use starting today.

[00:10:24] And strategies around us. First of all, you can utilize your already collected email lists, so essentially you can just email all of your customers that have given you consent to be emailed and ask them to get subscribed to your text marketing list. This can happen either via a special widget that we can embed, so if they click on a button, they get on a separate page on your website where they can leave their phone number after checking a policy box. Additionally, [00:11:00] they can use a keyword or a text X words, so milk to whatever number and get subscribed to our latest news and promos. Of course, they can utilize other channels. They can utilize push, or they can utilize Facebook messenger by asking them, Hey, we're starting this new thing. Do you want to subscribe? Do you want to participate?

If they're on Shopify plus, we can add an additional check box, or they can already utilize the existing one. Again, it needs to be unchecked mark by default. So that's very, very important. So I believe there quite a lot of ways that you can collect consent. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily more difficult.

I just think that everyone is very accustomed to collecting emails all the time. So when you actually ask them to sign up for something new, it creates this sense of interest. So.

Keith: [00:11:44] Yeah. So start as early as you possibly can, basically, and let it, let it build up over time. To go back to something that you mentioned there, Mike, in relation to the adviser at Shopify merchants, you know, not to send out a blast to let people know that you're now using SMS as a marketing tool.[00:12:00]

If a store owner sends those 10,000 SMS messages to 10,000 previous customers who may have opted in for marketing, but not specifically SMS marketing.

[00:12:09] Who is responsible for that message? Is it the mobile network? Is it SMSBump, or is it the actual store owner?

Mike: [00:12:15] That's a great question. So first of all, the mobile network is never responsible for anything, otherwise they wouldn't allow you to send a single message.

[00:12:29] So they're identified for many responsibilities. The second thing is that with SMSBump as I said before, even if you installed the app, we will have a way for you to transfer your existing text messages. So we will only transfer lists if you're coming from another service and you have a very clear opt in proof.

[00:12:50] So we will only upload the list. If you're coming from, let's say, a competitor, and you can show us exactly how you've got this numbers. And of [00:13:00] course we've been in the sector for more than two years now, so we pretty much have the formats that each and every service provides. Obviously if it's a new service, we need to see an approve that those contacts have opted in specifically for text marketing and when someone signs up for the service.

[00:13:20] They agreed to our terms and conditions. So I would say that everyone carries responsibility for the messages that they send, but SMSBump does all the little things to make sure that they don't do anything stupid, which would minimize the risk of them ever being sued for any breach of either GDPR DCPA or any other regulation around the world.

[00:13:45] Keith: [00:13:45] That's a good answer. You've explained it very well for merchants, so don't blast those and make sure that anybody that has is getting a message has to absolutely signed up. Pretty simple explanation of what you just said, isn't it?

[00:13:57] Mike: [00:13:57] Yeah. I think every merchant needs [00:14:00] to think of, it needs to put themselves into the shoes of what if they made an order for their son or daughter when they were newborns four years ago, and then four year after their kid is four years old and someone messages them about the latest promotion on diapers and first of all, they don't need that second of, Oh, you know, the kid has already grown up and this is how actually the people get their frustrated and them happy. So we should always be respectful of people's privacy.

[00:14:37] Always make sure that we send them relevant content and always tried to focus on contacts you, even if they're coming from another service that can have up to them within the last 12 months.

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Keith: When I look at the features of SMSBump, and I look at the features, for example, of [00:16:00] Klavyio, which is delivering a similar message along a different channel, which is emails versus SMS. And when we look at automations, which we focus on for our Shopify clients, what sort of automations can you use using SMS?

[00:16:13] Because I'm assuming that or am I wrong when I say that? You may not send us a welcome series every three weeks to a customer via SMS, but you may actually do that on email. So what sort of SMS use cases can you share for automations?

Mike: [00:16:28] I mean, first and foremost, the welcome flow is a great way for you to kind of like lead certain subscriber to a different point on the website. We're actually working right now on something very cool, which we call SMS responses. So when someone signs up, let's say via a pop up for text marketing, what we can do is we can ask them additional questions before.

[00:16:59] They become an actual subscriber. So let's say that we're running a 10% off for new customers that [00:17:00] sign up for SMS marketing.

[00:17:01] And the way we actually give this package away is that we will show the opt-in form only on a mobile device. And the rationale behind this is the person starts their journey on a mobile device and later they get the text messages on a mobile device.

And again, we recommend to keep any email collecting software on either a tablet or a desktop device. But back to the example, if someone signs up and let's say I'm serving products both for males and females, so we'll, I can do is with the coming of a, let's say valentine's day, I can ask them one additional question like, Hey, will you be shopping for your boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or wife?

I just respond with let's say, hobby for husband, wife, and based upon that I can get different types of flows.

[00:17:55] Delivered to the subscribers so that each of them get a unique type of content that we can predefine earlier on. So that one works pretty good based on our initial tests. Of course, the abandoned cart recovery is the old-time favorite works extremely well.

[00:18:21] New order confirmation with an upsell. So essentially when someone buys sofa product, what we can do is do a very simple condition saying, Hey, are the items in the cart larger than a 100 euro, and if the answer is yes, we can give them, let's say, a discount code or a bigger discount compared to if the items in the cart are lower than 100 euro in which way you might get no discount.

[00:18:50] Discount or just a very, very modest honor for you to finalize your purchase. Shipping notifications or to reviews we can ask people what are something like, Hey, this is Sean. I'm from Brand ABC. Just noticed your purchase, our sweater. And I wanted to ask how, how did it fit. Just respond to this question.

I'll be happy to, occasionally send you recommendations, if you would enjoy that. Customer win-back campaigns, someone was a customer, had one show for 40 days, we're sending them a text message with a discount code. Then wait for say 72 hours. Did they make an order since we started the flow?

 

Yes. If it's yes, they go, they, they get pushed to another flow. If it's no, then we can follow up with another question. So I would say pretty much everything that you can do, email nowadays, you can do with text messages. You own. The difference is that I would say to people need to be a lot more cautious on to their text messaging intervals.

So text messages work extremely well when they're a little bit more scarce, and obviously you can get away with [00:20:00] sending emails almost every day, sometimes even twice a day.

Keith: [00:19:57] 140 character limits. Does that just make life harder for your marketing departments in terms of writing content? Obviously the mobile networks will join messages together on delivery. that reduce the impact or simply force people to write better content? But does the restriction of 140 characters, does that reduce the impact or simply force people to write better content?

Mike: [00:20:15] I think it's different in every country. Uh, to my understanding gets 160 characters, which gives a little bit more room to wiggle. But and also some very small information. There are some countries where actually the messages are concatenated, so essentially they will be served to separate messages, but those are usually African based countries send us and not so popular destinations.

[00:20:40] So back to a question, I think Twitter well, largest successful due to the fact that it's pushed marketers to only go through the very, very necessary information that they need to convey to [00:21:00] customers. So I would say yes, it pushes you to be more creative. It pushes you to remove all type of fluff. And at the end of the day.

[00:21:03] This is why text marketing works is that because you get a promotion, there are no distractions or very little distractions. It tells you who it's from, it tells you why they're contacting you, what's the deal, and it gives you an option to opt out if you don't want to hear it from them. So I think it's very simplistic and it's one of the reasons why it works well.

Keith: [00:21:25] To go back to the point that you made a couple of times about the regulation, I mean, once you do is right and collect consent. The way you're explaining is, you know, is it's as powerful as, as email or certainly more powerful in some cases. Do you have any specific use cases where, I've heard of, you know, campaigns having a, you know, a 75% click through rate and a conversion rates two and three and sometimes five times out of email.

[00:21:50] Do you have any specific use campaigns where you saw where the store owners are just blown away completely that they never would have thought they would have had the success from SMS.

Mike: [00:21:59] [00:22:00] Yeah. Sure. So whenever you start collecting campaigns, subscribers, pardon me, the first thing that you need to do when you're doing a campaign is see where you're doing a campaign, which is a big holiday, where pretty much everyone expects to get some sort of a promotion from you.

[00:22:18] An example could be valentines day, which is forthcoming. One example can be 4th of July, Black Friday, Cyber Monday, mother's day, and all of that. So during those days, we always recommend blasting a one-off campaign, which means that you need to contact all of your subscribers that you have gathered. We always advise people to blast campaigns, SMS campaigns, ahead of their other marketing channels, and the reason being is that SMS have an extremely high open rates and extremely high click through rates.

[00:22:42] Always made sure to include you all brand name, just very little information about why are you reaching out to them. Very clear information about your promotion. Uh, cold traction, and again, an opt out. I don't necessarily thing that there has been a way where people were not getting good results. So maybe we can talk about some things which work very well, which is always leaving of one sentence probably that people can actually respond back to those text messages and walls. Their response. What actually happens is that they go on to a section of the app, which we call chat, so you can respond back to those people and thus engage in a conversation. Which is very convenient.

Also, any type of non-marketing information works extremely well, so just making sure that the customers are feeling great, that they're cared for, catered for, that they're happy with the purchase, that if they have any [00:24:00] questions, this is the channel where you can pretty much answer and solve their problems.

[00:23:59] Facebook live and Instagram live also work really, really good. So just gathering this information from your subscribers and blasting your campaign ahead of a live show, opening a brick and mortar store. So again, the results are great, just again, to be their brief. We always recommend to pretty much the SMS campaign ahead of everything else always use unique discount codes just so you can track reliably the results of the campaign. And yeah, you can just see how it's going to work out for you.

Keith: [00:24:34] That's good Mike. I think the way you described it just makes perfect sense to try it out. In terms of SMSBump on the terms of the account on the app, on the youth, run through some features of this.

[00:24:46] I noticed for example, that you have campaigns, scheduling tools, again, similar to any of the popular email campaign tools, and also you have a link shortener. Can you just run it? Give us an overview of what it would be like for us to log into your accounts for us and send basically your first SMS campaign.

Mike: [00:25:05] So once you log into your account, the first thing that you need to take care of is the onboarding, which actually includes a couple of points. Number one is the compliance as the most essential part. Afterwards, what you need to do is we were recommended to enable the opt-in forms so you can start collecting via a mobile form or via keywords like I mentioned before. Number three is we recommended to make use of the flows because they're a great way to retarget people that have given consent before. And last but not least, to set up the quiet hours. The quiet hours are actually times during which we don't allow you to send any text messages.

[00:25:49] So usually it's not okay to message anyone after 9:00 PM [00:26:00] local time all the way to 9:00 AM local time. So prior to blasting your first campaign, we will recommend you to actually go and create a segment. And even if this might result in not all of your subscribers being targeted as a first. We believe that this just narrows down a lot, the people based on different behaviors and interests, so essentially we might expect a much higher click-through rate and much better conversion rates.

From there on what you need to do is if you're based in Europe, pretty much we can send a text message from your brand name. Instead of, uh, you know, a random number for the bigger part, you need to specify when send it. It can be now or scheduled for later. We also have a very neat feature which sends the text message based on your subscriber's time zone.

And following that, we allow for you to input Google UTM tracking parameters so you can just make sure that they were extracting Google as well. And last but not least, you actually compose the text message. You know, you can include discount codes, you can add an image, of course, that works on the, unfortunately, the United States and afterward you can pretty much blast the campaign and make sure it's a stand the allotted six-page, cause you'll be seeing alot of traffic floating on your website.

Keith: [00:27:22] Like two questions. First question, if you're a move the number and replace it with your brand name, does that stop the customer from having the ability to reply to the message?

Mike: [00:27:31] Yes, it does.

Keith: [00:27:31] So that's more than likely a good idea to use it if you don't require a response. If you do require, you can't use it. And the second question is, and this is something that I haven't heard anybody talk about it, given that it's SMS versus email and we know that, you know, 60 70 80% of of of traffic is now across mobile.

But with SMS it's definitely [00:28:00] mobile. So do you advise, or in your experience, is this a better investment before you involve yourself in SMS to actually make sure that the mobile version of your site, which is pretty easy when you're a Shopify user because it's responsive. Would it be advisable to make sure that the landing page and the overall look and feel of your mobile site is absolutely 100% up to scratch?

Because if it's not, you could potentially be wasting outbound messages, does that make sense?

Mike: [00:28:21] 100% with you on this? I think it's an absolute must nowadays for everyone to have a nice experience on a mobile website. I would say I'm, I'm from the generation that pretty much prefers to shop on a larger device, which again is one of the beauties of the text message cause you might get the text message on a mobile phone, but then when you go home you might continue the experience on your desktop or tablet. But either way, you're gonna bleed and lose traffic if your mobile version doesn't look enticing. So definitely, you know, invest the required [00:29:00] attention and even funds in making sure that you serve as good of an experience as possible.

[00:29:07] Keith: [00:29:07] It's interesting because sometimes you have to make an investment somewhere else before you actually switch on a marketing campaign and we've seen a lot of clients who don't get that. They kind of get excited about, you know, automated email when they switch it on. But actual fact, you just need to be really careful where you're actually sending the client.

[00:29:29] And I think you need to be absolutely careful, more careful here because every client is guaranteed, obviously because it's SMS to be on a, on a mobile device. So thanks for clarifying that. I'm glad you agreed with me on that cause I, I haven't heard it being discussed anywhere else.

[00:29:43] Mike, the conversation is just be fantastic. I could talk to you all day. I might even get maybe a member of your team to talk about the products in more detail back on the podcast in the future. But in the meantime, in terms of, in terms of your own future plans and in terms of SMSBump, do you have anything exciting, any new developments, anything [00:30:00] that you can share with us in terms of, in terms of your own personal development or in terms of the, you know, the, the roadmap, the product.

Mike: [00:30:00] We're investing very heavily in our flows. Currently, that is our unique selling proposition and definitely over the other tools available on the app store. So we're developing a number of features. Number one is the responses within the replies. So essentially within the full spar in may. So essentially what might happen is that I might build her a flow and based on the inputs of the user, I might trigger a different branch of this flow. So I would say it's kind of like a chatbook for SMS. You find why I use that analogy. The second thing that we're developing is split testing inside flows with develop it for a text marketing.

[00:30:44] So AB testing works really good. And the way we did it as exactly as in Facebook. So you will select a AB split test or ABC, [00:31:00] whatever. Then you will select a target group, which is the group that initiative's going to get a text message. We will select the success. So is it going to be link clicks? Is it going to be revenues? Is it going to be a number of orders?

[00:31:05] And last but not least we'll select what time this initial target group will run for. So essentially we can run a split test for 10 minutes and after those 10 minutes we can distinguish a winner and send the rest of the campaign. And in this way, we know that what converted and performed best is what we're going to send to the larger amount of the remaining customers.

[00:31:29] So we are bringing this exact same notion inside the flows, which is something that we're really, really excited about. As a feature development, and we're also bringing a, a handful of other features. So we're bringing integration for the point of sale on Shopify because we find a quite a heavy demand and interest on that end. We're ramping up [00:32:00] our analytics where we show exactly how, which are people that are Mo more likely to respond to text messages, which are the ones that convert best, which are the best selling products on SMS. So a lot more information going there. What is the customer lifetime value? And you know, when our customers like it to drop into a funnel, so you can actually text message them before it is this happens.

[00:32:13] As well. And of course we're always going heavy on the integration. So we're working with a couple of strategic partners that we want to integrate with. So pretty exciting developments coming along. And I would say that this is enough to share, and we have very suddenly things coming along later on.

Keith: [00:32:41] You're busy. The beauty about the Shopify community, I think is the opportunity that the platform is getting, you know, app developers and businesses like yourselves, so it's always busy. It's always changing. You're always expanding on a product like your own. It looks like you've got in at the right time, and I think it's nice to see SMS making a comeback, as you said several times of course, if you do it the right way, you can turn it into a decent marketing channel. Mike, I want to thank you for joining us. It was a wonderful conversation. I'd also like to thank you you've very graciously given 30 of our listeners startup credit up to the value of $10 so we placed the details in that promotion, that offer in our show notes.

[00:33:26] In the meantime, we will follow you on best looking future.

Mike: [00:33:22] Thanks. Best of luck as well, and thank you so much for having me.

[00:33:29] Thanks for listening to the Milk Bottles Shopify Ecommerce Podcast. All of our episodes are available on Spotify and iTunes. We really appreciate the support of our sponsor. Rewind.io, the leading backup solution for your Shopify store. Get your first month of Rewind for free. Just to respond to any of the welcome messages or emails after you begin your seven day free trial and mention our podcast until the next time.

[00:33:54] Take care. [00:34:00]